tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post4378280657574820627..comments2023-08-27T02:56:53.756-06:00Comments on Frost Cave: Searching for Cumorah—All Over AgainChris Heimerdingerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-82616595044181395032017-02-13T10:40:07.818-07:002017-02-13T10:40:07.818-07:00It would sure be nice to have some visual diagrams...It would sure be nice to have some visual diagrams or map to visually demonstrate the issues involved. The picture in my mind keeps spinning until I get quite dizzy.legolasgalacticahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07650245158404321917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-22946932078123990092010-03-18T13:55:07.278-06:002010-03-18T13:55:07.278-06:00Chris, I served my mission in Guatemala, and then ...Chris, I served my mission in Guatemala, and then went on a B.O.M. tour at the end of my mission with my family. Your description of the area is amazing! I have read several books on the matter, and it is always interesting to read insights that others have about where it has all happened. Guatemala is as much a promised land, as is the United States, or Mexico. It's the people and how they live their lives that makes it continue to be so today, and as I love the people of Guatemala dearly, I pray that they live their lives in a way that the Lord will bless them.<br /><br />And the Book of Jared is one of my favorite books...Hillorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17024146934219324063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-88597382031026256002010-01-29T10:19:48.618-07:002010-01-29T10:19:48.618-07:00You're correct. There has been a movement, see...You're correct. There has been a movement, seemingly motivated by finances of late, to push the Great Lakes thing. My article that you mentioned about Priestcraft is bold enough to provide a link a FAIR article debunking such individuals. All things come and go. Only the truth remains. But your sensitivity of spirit, especially when noticing the hypocriticality of beginning with one theme and soon transforming to another, is commendable. It's true: The Lord has not yet revealed anything on this matter. But if any researcher ever becomes so bold as to suggest they feel "inspired" with regard to their Book of Mormon geography teachings, or "feel the Spirit" or anything of this sort, it immediately reveals them as a fraud. New revelation is reserved for the Prophet. For now, this is an game for the curious, and pursuit of the mind. However, I've always been fascinated and impressed how far we've managed to advance just based on reason, science, and logic. And of course, on the extraordinary text of the Book of Mormon itself. Thanks Tom.Chris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-43151970080121458922010-01-29T01:14:03.888-07:002010-01-29T01:14:03.888-07:00Nice work Chris. I too have an opened mind about n...Nice work Chris. I too have an opened mind about new research and find this post most fascinating. From all I have read and studied I am an amateur proponent of the Tehuantepec theory for broad generality. I have always been one of those individuals who seek out truth and enlightenment with a spirit of emotional conviction mixed with good common sense, but heavy on the personal conviction and Spirit. For some odd reason there seems to be an influx of folks trying to sell the Great Lakes/New York venue here in our community. I have always held great respect for the right to opinions and choice, even to the far reaches of beyond left field. But recently I was invited to attend a "fireside" on BOM lands. Although the speaker (I'll be nice and not identify him/her) started out with the fact that neither the church nor the Lord has clearly spoken out on where the exact location of the BOM lands are, they soon began to speak of their ideas as if they were gospel truths subject to the same authority as scripture. This was a drastic contrast to their opening statement concerning the idea that geographical locations of BOM lands have not been spoken of by neither the church nor the Lord. It soon became evident that selling their various books and videos was the central goal in the presentation. Several of the ideas being presented struck me with such a sense of wrong, that I eventually had to leave the meeting with my wife before it was over. I wrestled with the choice I made to leave, but after reflecting on that feeling I had, I believe it was the right choice. I read one of your posts that said something to the effect that someone who teaches ideas that are false and do so for money is in essence teaching priestcraft. Your writings have inspired me on many levels to be more inquisitive and seek out better understanding through the scriptures and through thoughtful prayer. I appreciate what you do. I only hope that others can see the importance not making statements of fact and authority when none exists or is given. Keep up the good work. <br />Tom….Net's newshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17127511366941014455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-44764698379869944102010-01-17T13:43:41.251-07:002010-01-17T13:43:41.251-07:00Great insights. I have always thought that the anc...Great insights. I have always thought that the ancient civilization spanned from what is currently Monterrey to northern Guatemala. This current idea is intriguing and fits more with what I envisioned as a hill cumorah.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16344781814439342282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-70578111618146920722010-01-13T21:47:05.875-07:002010-01-13T21:47:05.875-07:00Sorry to be such a latecomer to the party. I prin...Sorry to be such a latecomer to the party. I printed this post out (way back when you had zero comments!) along with the piece by Matthew Roper with every intention of reading them cover to cover, so to speak, next opportunity I had. Which didn't happen until tonight.<br /><br />I was as intrigued picking this stuff back up tonight as I was when I first saw your post back in December. And I did just skim over it again to see what changes you'd made, as well as read all the comments. (Frankly, I was expecting more comments!) I'm hoping for another chance soon to check out all the other links you have provided.<br /><br />But for now, I can honestly say my curiosity is piqued. I can't wait to see further research.<br /><br />I think I was in my late teens or early 20s the first time I encountered the idea that the Cumorah in New York may not be the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon. Perhaps because I was raised in the Southwest, surrounded by many ruins, I found the concept totally plausible. I've never been to New York, so I don't know the landscape there, but I don't think I'm aware of any ruins (other than our own), so from very early on, I was on board with the Central American region being more realistic.<br /><br />I can't remember when it was I read a novelization of the life of Moroni, I believe by Robert Moss, that has Moroni tracking all over the land alone in search of a safe place to deposit the records. It seemed completely realistic to me. I could picture in my mind him making it all the way to New York in the time he was given. I just didn't know how he would get all those heavy plates there without the Lamanites following in his tracks! But maybe he made more than one journey. Or maybe he had help. There were no other Nephites that we know of, but perhaps he converted followers along the way, and they, too, had to join his march. Who knows?<br /><br />I especially enjoyed your explanation of the pronunciation of Moron, even though I'd heard it both ways. I always had a leaning toward that but had never made the connection with Moroni. Feels like just a little more solid ground beneath my feet tonight!<br /><br />Thanks for all the research and insight you put into this. Oh, and my husband enjoyed reading it with me. :)Snowcatcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06360228352528558176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-91169478200198925702010-01-06T12:37:32.177-07:002010-01-06T12:37:32.177-07:00Jim, I read your link, and saw your statements. I ...Jim, I read your link, and saw your statements. I think you should contact me directly to discuss the matter further, and especially to insure that good research always prevails over sloppy research. cheimerdinger@gmail.com.Chris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-66376437706626626362010-01-06T12:24:20.167-07:002010-01-06T12:24:20.167-07:00I actually looked very closely at Cerro Bernal bef...I actually looked very closely at Cerro Bernal before writing my article, Jim. It's an odd choice and doesn't seem to fit much of the criteria. It didn't merit mention to me, except to say that "others have mentioned problems with el Cerro Vigia." But if you can make a case, I'd welcome a guest post from you to put up on this blog. But you better do better than posts made by Ainsworth. The candidate seemed silly, quite frankly.<br /><br />I know the work of Ainsworth and I know Davila and I can't say that either one are significant contributors to this field. They may be very nice guys, but not thoughtful or disciplined researchers. I actually know quite a bit more about Davila which is not very flattering, but I'll forgo mentioning such things here. In any case, it's sad that much of Ainsworth's work--parts not based DIRECTLY on Sorenson, Allen, Hauck, and especially Norman--is based on the flighty, nonsensical ideas of Jose Davila. Those who support Mesoamerica also have their "crackpots," unfortunately. Which doesn't help the cause of trying to emphasize the science and discipline that brought us to the Limited Tehuantepec theory in the first place. <br /><br />I would need a stronger reference with regard to your statements about Vigia having no evidence of warfare or large and short term populations. I know of no significant study that has drawn either of those two conclusions, but I could be wrong. Just offer the references. If they are valid, I can incorporate them into the article. We have to be very careful not just to throw out ideas unless we can back them up. Otherwise, in all fairness, we have to say, "Well, based on this, it MAY be true, but we need to do a lot more study." That kind of humility is totally lacking in all academics for the most part, and is desperately needed in the field of Book of Mormon geography.Chris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-76034570195929877982010-01-05T21:03:52.515-07:002010-01-05T21:03:52.515-07:00Chris,
I really enjoyed your article on BofM geogr...Chris,<br />I really enjoyed your article on BofM geography. It is always nice to read someone with an open mind, it seems there are so few now a days. While you are looking at candidates for Cumorah, you ought to consider Cerro Bernal NW of Tampico. It is the hill favored by Jerry Ainsworth who learned of it from Jose Davila. It is a truly impressive hill-a stump of an old volcano. <br />I too doubt that Vigia could be Cumorah and wrote a blog regarding it last year (http://moriancumr.blogspot.com/2009_02_20_archive.html). One thing you didn't mention is that there have been two recent archaeological studies of the immediate area that found no evidence of warfare or large short term populations.<br />I have my own theory that goes along with Sarah Nicols in favoring southern Central America. That area fits all the criteria including a realistic sized "narrow neck".<br />Jim W.ponchohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06060724041732281007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-13025132738134762872010-01-05T00:06:52.101-07:002010-01-05T00:06:52.101-07:00I don't recall a gym bag question. So no probl...I don't recall a gym bag question. So no problem.<br /><br />And as for Cumorah, of COURSE they are both Cumorah. All his life Moroni knew the Hill Cumorah of his childhood where the plates and other sacred records were kept. Then, after the last battle, we have a time break of 37 years. If Moroni wandered to New York, it would be absolutely natural and culturally congruent for him to name the hill where he finally deposited the plates the same as the Hill of his childhood, even if it was far, far away. We do this all the time as a race, especially for the sake of memory and nostalgia. I personally believe Mormoni could have easily named the hill in New York Cumorah after the same record depository-hill from his childhood homeland.Chris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-44656831198031090122010-01-04T23:28:00.780-07:002010-01-04T23:28:00.780-07:00To quote One Night With The King, "It is the ...To quote One Night With The King, "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honour of kings to seek it out." <br /><br />Goodness knows here at BYU-I there are lots of questions posed to the religion professors about which hill is the real one. One of my teachers, I wish I could remember who he was quoting, but he said something to the effect of Joseph Smith never said specifically either way, but seemed to promote the idea that the hill was in New York. In a way, I suppose it is--as is the one in Middle America. *shrugs* Odd way of looking at it, but I can't see why, in a way, they can't both be Cumorah in a sense. Perhaps I just havn't done enough research. <br /><br />PS: Brother Heimerdinger, I'd like to apologize for some of the more...rediculous questions I asked you on the site way back when....particularly one involving gym bags. I was very young and at the time had had far, far too much sugar. <br /><br />ArielInarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950815417172271831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-26351910683342753272010-01-02T14:30:05.689-07:002010-01-02T14:30:05.689-07:00John, I didn't publish your comments. Some of ...John, I didn't publish your comments. Some of them are very odd and I didn't quite understand your points. If you would like to email me directly and discuss it, that's cool. You confessed to not reading much of the article before making your points. I think that's mandatory, especially if you wish to make comments on this subject. Email me at: cheimerdinger@gmail.comChris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-9975145661631481962010-01-02T14:00:28.768-07:002010-01-02T14:00:28.768-07:00coming to the mention of Roper, I am pretty sure t...coming to the mention of Roper, I am pretty sure that some of my statements came from having read some of his works as well as those of Sorenson.John Pack Lamberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05086707132348039415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-7024431963833293412010-01-01T02:56:04.374-07:002010-01-01T02:56:04.374-07:00I enjoyed this post Chris! I find all geography t...I enjoyed this post Chris! I find all geography theories to be intriguing. Thank you for all you've done and do.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16029027373738079598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-6477512243901478432009-12-27T23:06:56.138-07:002009-12-27T23:06:56.138-07:00As always, Chris, you blew me away. Reading this p...As always, Chris, you blew me away. Reading this post was a bit of a challenge for me as I encountered words I didn't understand and tried to wrap my directionally-challenged persona around your words. But the pictures helped. I guess there's more to Book of Mormon geography than meets the eye. Further research will have to be done by people with more patience than I have. In the meantime, I look forward to reading your next book as soon as it becomes available.James G. Stokeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13331619300918542708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-20473082983109104622009-12-26T05:20:21.817-07:002009-12-26T05:20:21.817-07:00Oh, I don't think any of my opinions on this a...Oh, I don't think any of my opinions on this are conclusive at all. =) Believe me, I'm very much the amateur on this subject, but it's always interested me. The only thing that I believe concretely is that the BOM took place somewhere in the Americas. Your point is well taken, though. I've only read a handful of books and some articles on the subject, and there's a lot more out there to look into. <br /><br />I love Brother Gardner, though. I've read several of his articles at FARMS.Sarah Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09788155683857492789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-33361822529083402312009-12-22T12:44:15.078-07:002009-12-22T12:44:15.078-07:00Read some more of the research, Sarah, from all th...Read some more of the research, Sarah, from all the various scholars. There's more to discover than you might think. I'm not sure your "Feathered Serpent" perspective is conclusive. Check out this link and you'll see a great analogy for the whole thing:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-UnzBIZ_3UChris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-33955845831539104742009-12-22T12:11:30.555-07:002009-12-22T12:11:30.555-07:00While I'm always open to new theories and sugg...While I'm always open to new theories and suggestions, and I'm happy to be proven wrong, I've always tended to favor Central America, like Costa Rica and Nicarauga, more than Mexico. That area of the continent does tend to have a varied landscape, from wilderness/jungles to valleys to mountain ranges to marshlands to geysers to volcanoes, etc., which are all described, or possibly described, in the Book of Mormon. There are also other points that make me think it may have been south of Mexico. For one thing, there are about twelve different feathered serpent gods in the Americas, ranging from northern Mexico all the way down past Bolivia and Peru. Nearly all of them come from lands south of Mexico. I know that over time, people migrate and legends assimilate and all that, but it would make more sense for the stories to spread in both directions, rather than in a straight line down the continent. This is just a tiny little point, of course, but it makes sense to me. <br /><br />The problem is, there are so many different peoples and languages throughout all the Americas that have become extinct or assimilated into other cultures, that narrowing it down is practically impossible. But I guess that's probably my Mormon didn't include a map with the Book of Mormon. Knowing exactly where it happened takes some of the faith out of the equation. Still, it's annoying. I want to know! =)Sarah Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09788155683857492789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-26751080182708250862009-12-20T18:03:05.495-07:002009-12-20T18:03:05.495-07:00I think you're referring to Oliver Cowdery'...I think you're referring to Oliver Cowdery's reported "vision" or experience regarding "wagon loads of records" and a cave. As I inferred, I've always seen this as a vision. The details, such a swords with writing on it and being sheathed and unsheated, seems to suit a vision from the time period rather than something real. But in either case, I think it would be reasonable to assume that such a cave would exist in a volcanic region, which readily forms caves. Palmyra, of course, does not fit this description. Your notion of a parallel universe is intriguing. But I'm more inclined to just think of this as a vision. Thanks Darla.Chris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-50454662471293185112009-12-20T15:22:38.141-07:002009-12-20T15:22:38.141-07:00Thank you Chris, AS you know since I asked you fo...Thank you Chris, AS you know since I asked you for references a long time ago, I am very interested in learning thoughts about this subject. Your thoughts now go into my files of such thoughts I have collected. I am looking forward to adding Dr Poulsen's thoughts also. As you said one must first have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, there is no question in my mind, these people indeed lived the lives described in that book. Then comes the curiosity of how those plates got clear to New York. I have wondered if this is somehow tied in with the differrence between the Telestial and Terestial worlds, Joseph Smith could have stepped into a cave in the other world, what other way to protect such sacred objects?dedeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486028561385115457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-17478401423961578112009-12-18T13:55:06.915-07:002009-12-18T13:55:06.915-07:00Thanks Ryan. Give me your email/contact info. In p...Thanks Ryan. Give me your email/contact info. In particular I would have enjoyed discussing this article with you before even posting it. :) I'm at cheimerdinger@gmail.comChris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-37297251137278402302009-12-18T13:11:07.256-07:002009-12-18T13:11:07.256-07:00An interesting read Chris - hopefully everyone wil...An interesting read Chris - hopefully everyone will consider it with an open mind. It was good to see you at the conference!<br /><br />Ryan Williamsreservationcounterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08245783848514330698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-28854191227027735412009-12-18T11:58:05.268-07:002009-12-18T11:58:05.268-07:00Actually, that neck has been considered by MANY sc...Actually, that neck has been considered by MANY scholars in the old days. Descriptions in the Book of Mormon mean that it's a little TOO narrow. And remember that land?? MAN! that is a thick jungle! It was nearly impossible to cross even by European explorers! Malaria and disease runs rampant. There's very few archeological ruins. Most non-LDS and LDS archeologists believe it was pretty much as sparcely populated then as it is for the indigenous peoples now. Thanks sweetvictorya.Chris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-61168482470263701722009-12-17T23:14:15.418-07:002009-12-17T23:14:15.418-07:00Ever since I was little and lived in Panama, my mo...Ever since I was little and lived in Panama, my mom has felt the narrrow neck was Panama and that the Panamanian peoples were descendants of the BOM Lamanites. Culturally she felt it was the BOM lands. I know that has never been considered by any scholars. I am just sharing her thoughts too.sweetvictoryahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13957575741355937879noreply@blogger.com