tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post4419522435069511794..comments2023-08-27T02:56:53.756-06:00Comments on Frost Cave: Once Upon ApostacyChris Heimerdingerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-1705232197384183702014-09-22T19:17:42.561-06:002014-09-22T19:17:42.561-06:00Thank you. I needed to read this today. I have b...Thank you. I needed to read this today. I have been struggling with sadness over several family members who have intellectually apostatized. It breaks my heart, but what you say is true - the reasons they proclaim aloud are just their "exit story," and the real reasons lie under the surface and involve misplaced expectation or pride or sin. :(Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15632147837622267949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-6510237803210897982009-11-19T17:47:50.898-07:002009-11-19T17:47:50.898-07:00Your point is correct, but it's also true that...Your point is correct, but it's also true that Caiaphas' father-in-law was deposed specifically because of performing capital punishment based upon the Torah (i.e. for religious reasons) rather than Roman law. This was expressly forbidden, and I think John (who I know and have worked with) would concur. For this reason Caiaphas and Annas would have been particularly sensitive to the idea of going forward with capital punishment without the express consent of Rome, i.e., Pontius Pilate.Chris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-58479707205152868712009-11-19T17:19:43.627-07:002009-11-19T17:19:43.627-07:00My apologies if this is too off topic, but I read ...My apologies if this is too off topic, but I read something by John Tvedtnes about the trial of Jesus that was really interesting, and I thought I'd post it here because it you might want to add it to your research for your novel. Regarding John 18:31 wherein the Jewish leaders say, "It is not lawful for us to put any man to death," Tvedtnes says,<br /><br /><i>Many have misconstrued this to mean that the Romans had taken from the Jews the right of capital punishment. Such was not the case, however, for Rome merely superimposed its law on the laws of native peoples whom it conquered. There is clear evidence that Jews guilty of crimes meriting capital punishment could be <b>condemned and executed by Jewish courts</b>, as always. (<a href="http://www.ldsmag.com/ancients/040408pilate.html#_ednref4" rel="nofollow">Source</a>)</i><br /><br />He supports that assertion in the footnotes:<br /><br /><i>Josephus, in his </i>Antiquities of the Jews<i> 14.9.3, notes that in his day, <b>the Sanhedrin had the power to condemn a man to death</b>. This was but a few decades after Jesus' death, when Judaea was still under Roman rule. In addition, the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 4-9, 11), describing the Sanhedrin's operations in the days of the Second Temple, gives a list of capital crimes and very exact (and gruesome) details of the different types of execution, where they were performed, how, and by whom, under Jewish law. Finally, we have the evidence of Acts 7, where <b>Stephen was condemned and executed by the Jews</b>, not the Romans.</i><br /><br />I read Gerald Lund's <i>Kingdom and the Crown</i> series (and loved it!). In the last book, he uses this traditional interpretation to explain all of the Sanhedrin's machinations in the last week of the Savior's life. But now I wonder whether that's the most accurate way to portray it.<br /><br />I find Brother Tvedtnes's idea fascinating because it completely uproots my previous understanding of why all the scheming by the Sanhedrin was going on. It leaves me wondering what a fictional account of the crucifixion would be like if other motivations were identified and written into the plot (and Tvedtnes suggests some in his article).Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14498290529550647229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-34728549025833143132009-11-17T18:17:45.394-07:002009-11-17T18:17:45.394-07:00Chris: Misplaced expectation refers to an individu...<i><b>Chris: </b>Misplaced expectation refers to an individual who has certain defined "expectations" about life—generally from their upbringing or culture—and how, inevitably, the Church fails to live up to those expectations.</i><br /><br />This reminds me of a quote last Sunday from the Joseph Smith manual: "Do you think that even Jesus, if He were here, would be without fault in your eyes?" We all know the Savior was perfect and sinless, but sometimes we have a flawed expectation of what that would look like. I think that if any one of us were to spend 24 hours with the Savior, walking with and observing him, there would be at least one or two things that would defy our picture of "perfect and sinless." <br /><br />When I was younger, I thought sinless meant never saying anything that wasn't pleasant or "nice." As I began to read the gospels, I realized that sometimes the Savior was very blunt with people, in a way that at the time I would have categorized as "unkind" and therefore a sin. I've since learned that Jesus Christ is not only the Lamb, he is also the Lion (Rev. 5:5–6). <br /><br />(Actually, that's why Aslan is one of my favorite Christ figures—a character who could bite your head off, but instead he gives you lion kisses. Gentleness is meaningless unless the person has the power to hurt you as well.)<br /><br />It seems that Judas, the pharisees, and the saducees all had this expectation problem. "He seems like the most valiant, loving, perfect man there is, just like a Messiah would be. But he heals on the Sabbath, so he can't be the one."Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14498290529550647229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-41983634256854800832009-11-16T01:08:08.056-07:002009-11-16T01:08:08.056-07:00Wow!I really enjoyed...hmm, is that the right word...Wow!I really enjoyed...hmm, is that the right word when describing apostacy? Ok, I thought your post was really interesting! I was thinking that the Savior had many moments where the authorities at the time thought they 'had' Him on some point or other, perhaps Judas thought He'd 'get out of it' again, but provide a bit of money at the same time. Especially being passover. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong here, but I read that the Jews didn't believe in carrying out legal trials during passover, but unfortunately they made an exception. I think John 13:3-6 are very interesting verses on this topic.<br />I also have experienced apostacy of those I care about. My Dad is one of those who went awayyyyy. He is a very intelligent person, and tried to reason his way out but pretty soon his reasoning becomes pretty twisted.<br />A couple of years ago there was this documentary going around saying that they'd found Jesus' remains, therefore denying Christianity. Even here in Australia it was everywhere. Of course I didn't need to watch it to know it was false and I personally thought the logic against such a 'find' was so simple, I didn't know how anyone was fooled by it. Still a friend of mine who was inactive asked me what I thought because she was angry in general about its existence but that spiritual 'grace period' you spoke of was there as the smallest doubts were entering in. I hadn't planned it this way, but I found myself testifying that once you know Christ it doesn't matter what rubbish anyone says, or if you have the answers, because you Know, I know that He lives! Saying it, I felt the confirmation of the Spirit inside me, and she sat up straight and agreed, all doubt gone because she too felt the Spirit. She has since come back to church and is now setting an example for me all the time.<br />I also wanted to just say that I've been listening to the tennis shoes audiobooks (vol 5 & 6) and the simplicity of the faith expressed has been like fresh air to me. Although my testimony is solid, sometimes the adversary whispers cynicism (usually in my dad's voice) into my ears but listening to the way you've written about testimony and faith have melted the cynical voice into nothing. Thank you.Mormon Mummyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12846357106559739742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-64412201022679119682009-11-15T15:08:55.490-07:002009-11-15T15:08:55.490-07:00I really enjoyed that. It made me think of someth...I really enjoyed that. It made me think of something I read last night in one of my books. I thought I would share it. President Ezra Taft Benson said this (May 1989 Ensign, pg 5)"[Pride] is manifest in so many ways, such as faultfinding, gossiping, backbiting, murmuring, living beyond our means, envying, coveting, and being unforgiving and jealous".Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14623306872489983977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-55135374897045831182009-11-10T19:50:37.467-07:002009-11-10T19:50:37.467-07:00Your insights on apostacy are much appreciated. O...Your insights on apostacy are much appreciated. One of the reasons I enjoy your writings is that you put such considerable thought research into each of your works. Like other scholars whom I appreciate, I am then able to use many of your thought provoking ideas as road signs for my personal consideration and study. Much of what you write confirms or better states ideas I have long considered or been formulating. However, as in this article your comments about Judas have opened up a new avenue of thought for me to consider. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-14711286610295190972009-11-10T16:48:03.738-07:002009-11-10T16:48:03.738-07:00I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post and look fo...I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post and look forward to spending more time catching up on previous posts. You are not only an excellent fiction writer, you are great with spiritual matters in a very poignant sense, too. I've often wondered why Judas would betray his friend, and I'm looking forward with great anticipation to how you present him in the novel. I'm quite sure it will be insightful.Snowcatcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06360228352528558176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-86337343855098442162009-11-09T21:07:19.400-07:002009-11-09T21:07:19.400-07:00Thanks for giving us Frost Cave. I don't have...Thanks for giving us Frost Cave. I don't have any in-depth comments, but just want to agree with your premise. I have seen apostasy close up, and I know that you are right, and it is so very sad. LynnGrandma & Grandpa Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07372818521973825788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-20359765919109751682009-11-09T15:58:55.041-07:002009-11-09T15:58:55.041-07:00John Gee YouTube address again:
Link TitleJohn Gee YouTube address again:<br /><br /><a href="/www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_cdxJgYcZM/" rel="nofollow">Link Title</a>Chris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-17350165318070617602009-11-09T13:45:06.819-07:002009-11-09T13:45:06.819-07:00I really like what you had to say about the "...I really like what you had to say about the "grace period" of the spirit. I went through some apostate thoughts and "contradictions" early on in high school, these were supplied in part to the life I was leading and some of the choices I was making. It is interesting to me that right before this my testimony had been the strongest it had ever been, even though I was still making these choices. Then one day, the spirit just left, or I shut my ears. I went on to deny a lot about the church, even throw up these so called, "contradictions" in seminary classes, but the Love of God is so powerful. Many things happened and next week I am leaving for my mission. I'm so greatful for the Savior's Atonement. It brought me where I am today.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17174404392914559216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-37777346112510266982009-11-09T12:06:56.085-07:002009-11-09T12:06:56.085-07:00John Gee and I knew each other High School. We com...John Gee and I knew each other High School. We competed in Speech and Drama around the state of Wyoming. Very fun. I'm posting a link to John's FAIR speech on this subject even though you've likely already read/seen it. He's not a particularly dynamic speaker, but what magnificent information! He very carefully reveals that the papyrus upon which the Book of Abraham was written was most likely destroyed in the Chicago fire. I'd never seen it laid out quite like John does it. Thanks for your comment.<br /><br />This speech is actually in several parts. I'll only give the link to pt. 1. Hopefully those who know YouTube.com can figure out where to go from there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_cdxJgYcZMChris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-79469995216624685222009-11-09T11:27:16.280-07:002009-11-09T11:27:16.280-07:00I had several converstions with a couple people on...I had several converstions with a couple people on Facebook late last year and early this year on just this sort of thing. The big beef both times was the Book of Abraham. Their feeling was that because the Joseph Smith Papyri found in the Smithsonian (or whatever museum it was) did not and could not have produced the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet. One of them hadn't gone very far into the subject and just seemed to be looking for a reason to apostatize. The other had done a lot of research, but only on one side of the argument - the anti-LDS side. He hadn't bothered to read any of several books by Hugh Nibley, John Gee, and others at FARMS or other LDS sources on the subject, which he knew about, so it seemed obvious that he too was looking for a reason to leave. Every time I had an answer or response to a question or concern, he dug up another one, or flat-out refused to accept the answer. In the end, all I could really do was bear my testimony, say I'd given him the facts on his questions, and wish him luck in figuring out where he was going to go from there.ironhide781https://www.blogger.com/profile/09601001912310870173noreply@blogger.com