tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post8440867072797008890..comments2023-08-27T02:56:53.756-06:00Comments on Frost Cave: The Re-emergence of a Flawed DoctrineChris Heimerdingerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-11079681835531749772011-04-09T17:05:11.472-06:002011-04-09T17:05:11.472-06:00I came across an interesting article about univers...I came across an interesting article about universalism and the Restored Gospel, and I thought I'd post a link here, for those interested in the discussion:<br /><br /><a href="http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/doctrine-and-covenants-revelations-context/8-universalism-and-revelations-joseph-smith" rel="nofollow">http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/doctrine-and-covenants-revelations-context/8-universalism-and-revelations-joseph-smith</a><br /><br />It's by a seminary teacher in Sandy, Utah, and it was part of BYU's 2008 annual Sperry Symposium, published by the BYU Religious Studies Center. He doesn't say universalism is part of the Restored Gospel, but he does show some interesting connections, including statements by Brigham Young and some early apostles about universalism. It gave me something to chew on.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14498290529550647229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-73455439024949992602009-11-20T09:46:36.559-07:002009-11-20T09:46:36.559-07:00Thank you, Nathan, for these scriptures. They driv...Thank you, Nathan, for these scriptures. They drive the point home very nicely.Chris Heimerdingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000418124642779132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-342893761236499332009-11-20T08:02:23.176-07:002009-11-20T08:02:23.176-07:00Chris: The same flawed argument could be placed up...<i><b>Chris: </b>The same flawed argument could be placed upon the past as well as the future. If we have “always” existed, why did it take so doggone long to even get to the point of getting here to mortality? See the problem?</i><br /><br />That is a <i>fantastic</i> point. I think so many logical conundrums like this only seem problematic to mortals who are stuck in linear time. I'm not claiming to be able to comprehend how eternity functions, but I think once we can comprehend it, things like this will make sense.<br /><br /><i>Maybe there are those who don’t WANT to return to God’s presence? </i><br /><br />To me, this is exactly the message of several passages in the Book of Mormon:<br /><br /><i><b>Mosiah 2:38—</b>If that man ... dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause <b>him</b> to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire. <br /><br /><b>Mosiah:325—</b>If they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause <b>them</b> to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls. <br /><br /><b>Mormon 9:3–4—</b>Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be <b>happy to dwell with that holy Being</b>, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? Behold, I say unto you that ye would be <b>more miserable</b> to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.</i><br /><br />All three passages emphasize that when we return to God's presence for the Judgment, if we haven't repented, he does not cast us out, strictly speaking. We run out of the room. We cast ourselves out. And that's because, if we're not prepared, we won't be happy in His presence. <br /><br />I think of it like those Scout Camp bonfires. Everyone would sit in the forest amphitheater waiting for the evening program and bonfire to start, wishing they had a fire and shivering from the cold (earth life). Then someone would light the bonfire, and everyone would run up right next to it (the Judgment). Then a funny thing would always happen. After about five seconds, many of us started thinking, "Ouch! This is hotter than I expected!" So what did we do? Some would take two steps back, others would take four steps back. Others walked back and sat down on the benches. And others stayed just as close as they originally were, because they liked that amount of heat.<br /><br />I kind of think that's what the Judgment will be like. Everyone will be exposed to the full, glorious, intense presence of the Father, and then, like King Benjamin and Mormon say, many will be so uncomfortable because of the degree to which they've not repented, that they will voluntarily retreat from the presence of the Father. Some will step back to a terrestrial glory, some to a telestial glory, and some will retreat all the way to outer darkness. We all move to the glory where we feel most comfortable. <br /><br />We often think of hell as the burning place, but both Isaiah and Joseph Smith teach that "God dwells in everlasting burnings." So the question is whether we'll prepare ourselves to feel comfortable to dwell with him in the glorious bonfire.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14498290529550647229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-27408216306280272632009-09-14T11:25:54.169-06:002009-09-14T11:25:54.169-06:00Just a quick touch-up on a previous comment - Trum...Just a quick touch-up on a previous comment - Truman G. Madsen was never a General Authority, so calling him Elder is not exactly accurate. But I wholeheartedly agree with what he said. <br /><br />One of my BYU professors taught a doctrine that seemed the polar opposite of this 'advancing through the kingdoms' idea, but equally as erroneous - that of annihilation. He taught that souls sent to outer darkness are literally destroyed - blown apart, if you will, back into whatever it was we were before we were spirits, and then 'reorganized' into different spirits. Call me crazy, but this sounds like an attempt at an LDS rehash of reincarnation. I think a good rule of thumb is the advice Joseph Smith taught - don't tend to the outer branches [of church doctrine] - cling close to the trunk.ironhide781https://www.blogger.com/profile/09601001912310870173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-61402519447713158022009-09-08T23:26:21.151-06:002009-09-08T23:26:21.151-06:00Here here!!!Here here!!!Mormon Mummyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12846357106559739742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-61440817442968807022009-09-05T09:25:23.362-06:002009-09-05T09:25:23.362-06:00There is definitely a reason why Mormon included t...There is definitely a reason why Mormon included the basic concept of Nehor's sophistry in the abridged records. The Gospel is simple, so simple that our mere mortal minds have a hard time comprehending it. The adversary takes advantage of that in trying to lead people astray by modifying it to satisfy the mortal limitations we operate under.<br /><br />The Lord's Atonement and sacrifice are indeed universal in that it is accessible to all who enter mortality, but that does not equate to everyone is guaranteed to become joint heirs with Christ...<br /><br />Redemption from the physical death is universal. Beyond that, the only thing universal is that God's law is applied equally to all who are capable of sin. Salvation in the form of Exaltation is a combination of grace and merit based, with the former not kicking in until the latter has been filled. It is indeed available to all and all are called to take part in it, but to say or intimate that everyone will accept or listen to that call during the time given to do so is indeed false, misleading, and pernicious.<br /><br />The scriptures and living prophets are pretty clear in telling us that no unclean thing can abide the presence of The Father and that in the resurrection we are restored to that which we have merited in mortality.<br /><br />Extrapolating that justice will have no hold on anyone from the assumption The Lord is more merciful with individuals than we assume He will be is indeed false.Mellocathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756355822089842019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-18830581220335971282009-09-03T21:01:56.823-06:002009-09-03T21:01:56.823-06:00Regarding the Joseph Smith suicide statement, I fo...Regarding the Joseph Smith suicide statement, I found a quote by Elder Truman G. Madsen awhile back that, to me at least, answers the question:<br /><br />"Many of us have heard the statement made—and ascribed to either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young—to the effect that if a person could see the glory of the telestial kingdom he would commit suicide to get there. If only we could get the fundamental doctrines across to Church members as rapidly as we get across rumors, everyone would be saved. Am I saying that’s a rumor? Well, I am saying this: that over a period of many years I have combed everything Joseph Smith said and wrote, and I can’t find it. Hugh Nibley has done the same with Brigham Young’s words, and he can’t find it. It is hard to prove a negative, of course. What I can say is that we have found a statement from Joseph via Wilford Woodruff that says something else that is close, and I suspect it is the origin of the alleged statement. Elder Woodruff said the Prophet taught this, roughly: that if we could see what is beyond the veil we couldn’t stand to stay here in mortality for five minutes. And I suggest from the context that he was not talking about the telestial kingdom. He was talking about what it was like to be in the presence of God and the family."<br /><br />None of the quotes about it are direct quotes from Joseph Smith, just things recorded about 30 years later by other people from second- and third-hand accounts.Sarah Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09788155683857492789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8426723056163837913.post-24422280316442170092009-09-03T17:17:32.944-06:002009-09-03T17:17:32.944-06:00I agree with you wholeheartedly. Universalism is f...I agree with you wholeheartedly. Universalism is false.<br /><br />The best argument against Universalism which I could offer in support of your ideas here, is the resurrection. There is only ONE resurrection for each of us. That body with which we are resurrected is one of "bodies celestial, bodies terrestrial, and bodies telestial." Our resurrection is literally part of our judgment, and that is wholly determined by our spiritual state. Have we chased all darkness from our souls through obedience and proper application of the atonement by repentance? If so, Christ's grace makes us whole... and we have BECOME celestial. That is the body we will be raised from the grave with. We will see in a coming day that the bodies of God's resurrected children in those kingdoms are as different as the sun is from the stars and the moon.<br /><br />Just my two bits.Daron D. Fraleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14753629830336214161noreply@blogger.com